A place for a little praise?

General chit chat about razor, not specifically related to a topic but about razorCMS

A place for a little praise?

Postby psycheval » Thu May 01, 2014 7:14 pm

Hello folks. I'm new around here and fairly new to designing and web apps in general. HTML and CSS from a tutorial was about all I could do for several years because I was learning things from the Operating System side of the house. Easiest thing for me to do with what I wish to relate to you is copy and paste a page from my personal Wiki I run on my Local LAN. Bear with me a little in what I say in it and how I put it. It's meant for people dumber than me to understand part of it. I have two sons that might one day decide they would like to learn some of this which is the point in me posting it in my WIki. I am an avid Linux user and have been so for going on 15 years for a little background on my skills and where I'm coming from. I am self taught in all things PC. I have no formal training or education in Computer Anything 101. So now you know other reasons why you need to bear with me. Anyway here goes.

And "Great Job" to smiffy6969!!

Site Builders V2

Created Thursday 01 May 2014

I have written a little on this as I've gone along and need to rest my brain so I'll elaborate some here.

The count on CMS, Wiki, and various other applications I have run to date is now somewhere over 45 or 50. I almost can't count that high. I ran out of fingers and toes a couple of weeks ago. If you can go to Wikipedia and several other obscure sites that list all the CMS's and Wiki's at least 80% of what they list has probably been downloaded to my desktop. 75% of that original number probably made it to my server. 95% of what made it to my server died on it. As in DELETED. These applications are supposed to make your life easier when deploying a website.

Really????!!!!

Yes there is angst in that "Really????!!!!".

I have looked at applications that are as bare-bones as you can get, like CouchCMS, Jekyll, and WolfCMS to the full fledged CMS's like Wordpress, Joomla, and Drupal. One revolving theme in them all is that there is "something or other this one won't do". The other big theme is "I'm not staying in here running around in circles in the Admin interface trying to learn this".

If you have to learn to code to use a CMS what's the point of the CMS?

Now, with me saying all that if you are an end user. The site owner and not a Developer or Designer there are some that would fit your purpose. If your not doing the front-end work your self, they would work. If you like the way it looks or can live with the way it looks for your site they will work well.

Why a Developer or Designer would use one "personally", is beyond me, outside of just plain needing the back-end for authorization. You just make your site on your Desktop and push it up on the server. Your building it on your Desktop already. You open the editor on your Desktop that's already set up to edit any and everything and not the built in Web Editor that comes in most CMS's.

It's easier to create your own templates and code them up with content then push that to the server than it is dealing with a CMS or Wiki. I have tried. With that being said there are a few that I can tolerate and quite possibly would use. We'll elaborate on the one I am currently setting up layouts for and has beaten the others hands down.

razorCMS easily made the top of the pile. razorCMS just bumped to a new version and I really like what I see so far in it. For one man to be coding that up all by himself shows just where I'm trying to get to. How he built it is what I want to learn to do. It's not complicated at all. I just can't code outside of HTML, CSS, a little PHP and Javascript. Yet...., if I'm capable. What he did is leverage the current technologies to make the application. The current web app tech is way simpler than even 4-5 year old designs. He incorporated Bootstrap in it. Which is what I have been developing off of for my hand coded pages and been looking for in a CMS. I need to add a little to that last sentence. I have been looking for a CMS that uses Bootstrap that I can create my own layouts in 'simply'. Simply, being key.

I used V2 of razorCMS to start with and had decided on using it for my back-end. Then I found it was bumping to V3 so I waited. It was worth it. I am currently trying to get my own layouts done up to use in it. If I ever build a site for someone else it will be what I try to use. It fit's the definition of intuitive. It's simple. It works. For an end-user there should be no learning curve. From a designer stand point it let's you make it look how you want easily. Can you tell I like it yet? I found the happy medium I was looking for between a CMS not doing enough or doing too much.

What some of these CMS's do to get Bootstrap in it so they can say "It's got Bootstrap in it" makes it very complicated to create your own layout or impossible even. Therefore you get to deal with whatever layout and theme somebody else made for it. That defeats my purpose. First thing I go look at when I set up a new CMS is the layouts and themes. If I can't make heads or tails out of the hopping around in the code they are doing I drop it almost immediately. Some of them I never get past looking in the directory structure and a page or two in my editor and they get dropped, they never land on my server. If they have the combination of being difficult to create layouts and have one of those Admin sections in them that run you in circles they die on the server. Sometimes too many choices 'IS' a bad thing when it comes to Admin. Sometimes a lot of choices, that are not overwhelming with the amount, are bad if you have to learn to "navigate" the Admin section. Intuitive they are not. I have also found that, unless they have been released in the last month, when whatever web app it is own site says 'Intuitive' and 'Bootstrap' on their home page it is probably anything but 'Intuitive". Odds are it was never intuitive even before they added "what they call" Bootstrap. Intuitive to a Web Developer and intuitive to a Web Designer are two very different things, much less an End-User. The point of a CMS is supposed to be Web Designer intuitive. All the back-end code is supposed to be done by a Web Developer.

The moral to this story is?

If you can build it and you are the one that's using it, use whatever it is your capable of building and administering yourself. Not what somebody else has coded up.

I am also changing my train of thought in my learning process at this point. The deciding factor for that thought change was V3 razorCMS. The toss up for me has been to try and learn one of the script languages well. Javascript or PHP. I need to start with one or the other and had set my sites on PHP. I may backup from that after what I've learned to date. It may be javascript I work on the most and first. I need both but I believe javascript might make it easier for me to figure out more PHP. That is if can get javascript knowledge to at least the level I can do html and css to date. That level as of this writing is opening an editor and laying out pages for html and css by keyboard out of the top of my head. If I can do that with those two I should be able to do that with javascript, php, or both if I possess the ability to ingest it.
psycheval
 
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Re: A place for a little praise?

Postby smiffy6969 » Thu May 01, 2014 8:54 pm

awesome... and thankyou.... I have a vsion in my head of how it should look and work... my main aim is to turn CMS's on their head. Why should they need a manual to use, degree to understand, in reality if you have a story to tell, why can't you just lead your user through it one step at a time!

The main thing here is I do what I feel is right, NOT what the cool kids do, because one is following and the other is leading. That being said, there are a whole word of good ideas out there hidden between all the stuff that everyone uses because everyone uses it.

First and foremost, bootstrap is awesome, it has made life very easy and the best of all is angular, if you only learn one framework, make it angularJS. Until you start to code large projects, you really cannot even touch why this is the way you should go, it slashes dev time purely with live binding let alone everything else. It has now transformed the way I think things should go.....

razorCMS V2 was 80% php 20% js
razorCMS V3 is 80% js 20% php

Seriously in a world of instant this, live that, there is no place for running web applications on a language that has to end. PHP is run once, refresh etc... JS is live and dynamic. So what did I do? I pushed everything to JS and left PHP doing what it is good at, manipulating data, leaving JS to handle the UI.

That being said for now we still route through PHP, due to the issues with scrubbing a javascript page for SEO and indexing, but once the bots catch up we can abandon PHP and leave it for data management. So I abstracted all data management to a simple REST server in PHP (that could be switched to other tech simply like node).

anyhow enough rambling, I haop I got the balance right, I think i did, it balances the new tech against issues like SEO and usability etc, it is early days but traction is much better with this framework than V2.

Glad you like it and thanks for the time to write it up ;)

smiffy
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Re: A place for a little praise?

Postby smiffy6969 » Thu May 01, 2014 8:55 pm

In time the UI will mature, the tools will grow and the extensions will flurish, the future is very bright for razorCMS.

smiffy
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Re: A place for a little praise?

Postby psycheval » Fri May 02, 2014 12:10 am

Your on the right track as far a some dummy like me can tell. I do appreciate your work. It has helped me not just learn but given me something to learn from. I totally agree with the Java usage. I think that's where it's at. Your CMS fit my learning curve perfectly basically. Now I need to get to learning some more about Java and quit playing with CSS, LESS, and SMACSS. LOL!!!!!
psycheval
 
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Re: A place for a little praise?

Postby smiffy6969 » Fri May 02, 2014 6:45 pm

Hey, don't put yourself down, we are all learning..... I have learnt to treat those who call themselves masters at anything as foolish.

Javascript is the way forward, some good reading

AngularJS (kicks the crap out of jquery, mootools and all)
https://angularjs.org/

requireJS (JS dependancy management and asynchrnous loading to lighten the load on bandwidth)
http://requirejs.org/

Bootstrap 3 (which I think you mentioned
http://getbootstrap.com/

Package manager for JS (we do not use this with razor purely due to the fact it's harder to ensure we restrict anything that could compromise the system as packages contain lots of stuff we do not need and other stuff packagers bundle, plus it makes the download larger as you get many versions of the one file you want, I may switch at some point but this is good for dev work)
http://bower.io/

that should give you plenty to read.

I would also learn some PHP, it is required, especially when creating extensions, but concentrate on JS (specifically angular) as well as CSS3
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Re: A place for a little praise?

Postby psycheval » Fri May 02, 2014 9:03 pm

Those are some goodies. You can throw any others at me you think might be relevant. Me and Bootstrap seem to get along well and have from the start. Using LESS is something I just started doing in the last few weeks and have quickly learned that it is the way to go for CSS. I try to start simple. Javascript itself is not as new to me as Angular or Require. I had to go find Require when I found it in the razorCMS files. I hadn't studied on it but had looked at Angular. I've dabbled with Java of different sorts for years because of it's use in the desktop shell but never tried to learn it. I am not a coder. I have a one sided understanding with BASH. It tells me it doesn't like what I'm telling it and I go hunt down how to make it like it. Most of the time anymore I simply type:
Code: Select all
$ man "whatever"


I've got holes that need filling in spots and know how to do things fairly well in others. I've found a lot of good documentation on the net and that helps a great deal.

I pretty much scoured over just about all of razorCMS3 files in my editor after I extracted it. I too have learned there are no masters of anything. Linux teaches you very valuable lessons if you use it long enough. The number one rule for me is if you don't know what to do or how to do it Google it.

I like to learn and know I don't know everything. If we were discussing the internals of Arch, Debian or Gentoo I could weigh in pretty heavily. This stuff is still knew to me on the web side of things. I never had cause to need a way to make a site for any reason other than to play with it. I only used Apache to run a local repository. Now I have delved so deeply into the OS internals I mentioned above that it is easier for me to maintain my own documentation and the way I do things.

It stops me using Google Search.

It stops endless hours of running around looking at 500 different answers on 500 different sites and there might be 1-2 of those answers you actually glean anything from. It stops having 4-5000 bookmarks in my browser. When you need a database to query a search against for you bookmarks something has to give. I understand this to be a progression that a lot of Linux users evolve to or devolve to however you want to look at it. I do custom system installations, Debian versions in particular. When you do some things that nobody else has posted anywhere on the net that are "one-ofs" it serves you to keep very good records. You sleep a time or two and you forget that command string you did for this or that just about the time you really need it.

You understand all that of course. You make a CMS.

I don't do it for money and am not out to sell anything. All I need is a way to keep flat-files, have a back-end of some sort attached to them, and a server. No MySQL needed. I'm not serving any files other than the pages. I want it to look good and work well. I don't want to be locked into a theme or layout. I want to make my own theme and layout. I also want what little hair I have left attached after I try to make said theme or layout. Your razorCMS has allowed all of the above.

You have a very good thing going here and I would sure like to see it grow. I like it when I see good work. If I ever get to the level I feel comfortable offering any help I would do so. I am sorely lacking though I suspect at the current moment. Folks doing that sort of thing is part of what helps things grow. And that helps people learn.

I'm just an Old Hand in the Linux world. I have already posted more on here than I have ever posted anywhere for any reason. I tend not to ask many questions I learned the answers are out there if you just look.

Speaking of posting. I've never been this long winded either.
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Re: A place for a little praise?

Postby smiffy6969 » Sat May 03, 2014 1:02 am

I can honestly say you sound a lot like myself..... I am touching 40... and to be honest. I am no programmer... I understand logic and patterns. By trade I am an electronics engineer, in fact I am a broad engineer, electronic/mech/electric by trade. I program because it is logical.

I also do not do it for money, if i did razor would be long gone, I do it for the thril of the chance, I like the impossible, the mystery and I do this for no other reason than can i do it. I have only been a commercial dev for 2 years after seeing the down turn in engineering and trying to pre-emptively do something to help feed the family. I see every language as just another way to express the same issue.

I would be more than happy to chat more about anything you are looking into, just PM me, I am a bugger for getting hyped up about new ideas, tech, anything and being a fellow of wanting to learn (yes when i relax I watch wildlife, science, anything that can tell me anything) I think we have a lot in common.

I love your no frills explanations, so any feedback is always welcome, I am just so pleased that at least one person gets what I had in my head, please stick around, as i think you have a lot of knowledge to pass one, I am not talking programming, I am talking wisdom of being and doing and that is what so many lack these days.

time for bed, beer night and tired, thanks for your posts, long (he heh he )but full of insightlfull things....

knowledge is all around us, people really don't know how much information is about, they just need to look.

smiffy
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